PostCut - The Film Podcast

Lets put a smile on that face! FEATURE TABLEAU

September 28, 2019 PostCut: The Film Podcast Episode 2
PostCut - The Film Podcast
Lets put a smile on that face! FEATURE TABLEAU
Show Notes Transcript

This time the Joke is on us, David M. breaks down one of the most Iconic scenes that may give us some insight into what makes an excellent Joker portrayal on the big screen. What will we think of the upcoming Joker movie?

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The show where we analyze films from the latest to the greatest, the worst and the lamest!

Speaker 1:

Spoiler alert before listening will be spoiling parts of this film. If you wish to watch this film, spoiler free, turn back now before it's too late now on with the show. Hello boy, blunder rusty.

Speaker 2:

Build that, man.

Speaker 1:

Hello everybody. Welcome to post cut feature Tablo. We're going to be doing the interrogation scene from the dark night directed by Christopher Nolan. I'm David Brown writer editor. And with me are VFX artists, David beer camp. Hey, what's up and stage actress and voice actor. Sarah Peterson. All right, dark night. One of the best in the trilogy. Usually the second one is

Speaker 2:

Well, and it depends on what you're watching to be completely honest with you. This trilogy of Batman movies is probably the best it's ever come out in terms of the DC universe

Speaker 3:

It's done with a unique spin, which is also what makes it stand out. I personally liked the third one the most.

Speaker 2:

Well, you have a boy crush on Tom Hardy,

Speaker 3:

Dad and I have a boy crush on conclusions. I always like resolutions for some reason, that's a personal take, but the second one is the climax or the most climactic. Okay.

Speaker 1:

As the second one is like in the whole series really is basically, but this one really kind of shows it is that it's essentially just a detective story. It's not a superhero movie. It's a detective story disguised as a superhero.

Speaker 2:

And that's exactly what Christopher Nolan wanted. I think with this trilogy, one of the things I really like about it is that it takes a new spin on the joker. And while he's ledger is not my favorite joker, Jack Nicholson will always be my favorite joker for

Speaker 1:

Me. No

Speaker 2:

Kidding. It's true.

Speaker 1:

I know they're both good in their context they

Speaker 2:

Are. And if you think about how they portrayed the character, everybody who has portrayed the joker at some point or another has added something to the character. I'm actually really looking forward to see what Joaquin Phoenix can do with the joker. I am too. But I mean, until then I can, 100% say that Jack Nicholson is my favorite.

Speaker 3:

I can't pick a favorite. I love the Heath ledger one because it was just so iconic.

Speaker 2:

Well, I wouldn't call it a chronic I'd call it gritty versus iconic because your iconic would be Richard. Is it Richard Ramiro?

Speaker 1:

No Cesar Romero, Cesar

Speaker 2:

Romero, excuse me.

Speaker 3:

Never liked any other Batman movies, to be honest, because I always found the joker to be kind of too

Speaker 2:

Well. That was the point of him. He was the comic relief of this Sierra,

Speaker 3:

But I just, I don't know, scare me. This one's scary.

Speaker 1:

The point of Heath Ledger's joker is that where Jack Nicholson's was kind of an homage to the campiness of the sixties and those comics, Heath Ledger's joker is more to the point of joker as he came in in 1940, he's a killer he's he's someone, as Alfred says, he just wants to the world burn. He doesn't care. Nothing matters to him, money, nothing. So let's go onto the scene here. Um,

Speaker 3:

And what a great scene that showcases cinematography acting and everything coming to you.

Speaker 1:

Yes. This scene, in my opinion, is a microcosm of how to make an entire movie. The scene has a beginning, a middle, an end. It has a climax to it. It not only does it have a climax itself, it is the climax of the movie. This is where the joker wins. Oh yeah. Yeah. For those of you out there that have seen this and don't think so, I'm going to say you're mistaken because Batman does not win in the dark night. No, he loses. I feel

Speaker 2:

Like Batman loses all the time because

Speaker 1:

No, I think he wins in the third one. Cause he's put Batman away. Yeah. You may not lose the soul of Gotham, but he loses himself. He loses a certain amount of power and that's what he drily loses in the scene,

Speaker 3:

Break the three movies into three, three X structure, the hero kind of rises. Then he falls dramatically and then he rises again. So it shows that beautifully illustrated.

Speaker 1:

And in the third one, he rises beyond what he was dark

Speaker 3:

Knight rises.

Speaker 1:

Correct? Yeah. The interrogation scene we opened with Mr. Gordon coming in and talking to the joker who is bathed in darkness, least once we get to the mid shot. And basically it's the idea of where is Harvey dens? And the joker knows exactly where he is. And we know he's not going to give anything up. And Gordon knows right away, he's not getting anywhere. So he leaves and we get a nice closeup of the joker in the dark with his makeup as the contrast and everything. And the light goes on, blinding him, Batman, shoves his head into the table. And you can tell the joker has gone through this before. He is no rookie when it comes to being interrogated because his first reaction is never go for the head. It only makes the person fuzzy. He won't feel the next. And that's when Batman punches him in the hand and he says, see, so at that point, Batman kind of realizes, I think in a very small way that he cannot really beat this out of the joker. He's not going to do that like he does with other criminals, but it's kind of ironic. He's not scaring the joker, which is the whole point of him dressing as the bat to be

Speaker 3:

The purpose of his mantra. Mantra

Speaker 1:

Is to put fear into the hearts of the criminal. And he can't do that with each one. That's fearless, right? Cause the joker does not care when you don't care, you have nothing to lose. So onto it, they start to talk, where is he so on and so forth. This is where the camera starts to play on you because in American films and I'm solely talking about American films in Western culture films, when the good guy is generally introduced, if it's a camera move or he's walking into camera, he walks in from left to right, because we read from left to right. We equate left to right as being good and right to left being bad. One of the first examples is strangers on a train opening from Alfred Hitchcock, right? If you watch very closely at the very beginning, you have Batman is on the right side of the screen. He's on screen, right? Joker's on screen left looking right Batman again, three and left looking right? The camera. When we see Batman is slowly panning from left to right. And we see the joker, it's slowly panning right to left. Then you call it as we were watching the scene, we break the 180 rule, which is now the, is now on right screen. And Batman is now on left stream. So smooth because it's done with a camera move because just before it does, the camera is still moving, ever so slightly. And then we see Batman on the left and the camera is now panning right to left to Batman. Right. It inverts it. So now the joker is now on the right side of the screen being panned left to right. Who's the good guy. Who's right.

Speaker 2:

And if you look at it acting wise, you really feel this kind of sympathy for the joker in that moment. At least I do. And it's one of those things where it's a trick of the mind that maybe this is a guy you kind of want to root for at this point, because there's just something about him.

Speaker 1:

Well, there are theories that state that he's the actual hero of the movie.

Speaker 2:

100% understand that in terms of comic book and all of that stuff, I would say that acting-wise Heath ledger really hammed up the victim and he did it really well

Speaker 1:

In the interrogation scene.

Speaker 2:

Oh yeah. Which pulls at your heartstrings as an audience member. Cause you're like, you're, you're the bad guy. Wait, I'm not supposed to feel this for you.

Speaker 3:

But when this camera moves are happening before we get beat of, it's interesting because he's talking about their place in the world, right. When they're placed in the world, cinematography wise shifts, right. As he mentions it, right? It's a synergy

Speaker 1:

Then to the script, the idea, when he tells him, Batman asked me, he says, well, why did you want to kill me? And the joker laughs at him, he's killed you. I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you? You complete me because Batman and the joker are two halves of the same coin. They're ying and yang. They are union yang. Yes they are. We don't know the origin of the joker. And I think all these origin stories are great and I think they should keep it as such. We should not have a definitive origin for the joker, in my opinion,

Speaker 3:

His lack of origin contrast Batman's origin. Right?

Speaker 1:

I think you can assume that the joker had a tragic origin. Like Batman turned out differently. He just went the other way. He went to the dark. Even Bain says it you've adopted the dark, but they are, they are basically the same person fighting with one another. And when he tells him don't be like these people, you're not like them. Even if you want to be, they look at you like me, you're just a freak. And I believe that's true because would you really want a Batman running around your city? No, I don't think so. That'd

Speaker 2:

Be scary. I mean, if you think about too, the way that he invokes justice is very much against the idea of trial by jury because he is basically trial jury and execution. So he is the actual definition of what a vigilante is. And in a sense, it was great when it first came out in like the thirties, the forties, that timeframe, because you wanted the vigilante justice, you wanted someone who could go in and kill the Nazis or whatever

Speaker 1:

Context, because context at the

Speaker 2:

Time, when you look at the modern time, we are all the joker in one form or another. And Christopher Nolan really pulls that through with Heath ledger and his acting job. And while he is by no means my favorite joker, I have come to appreciate what he brings to the character. Especially after looking at the scene multiple times, it definitely brings this human element to it. Especially if you've seen

Speaker 3:

Him glitter talk normally and act

Speaker 2:

Normally 10 things. I hate about my favorite. I couldn't

Speaker 1:

Believe the joker at that point.

Speaker 3:

I couldn't believe that it was him. Even though I know like the face structure slightly, but it's like, no, this is not Heath ledger. This is the joker embodied. He is possessed

Speaker 1:

And it's beautiful. He was the joker. Yes, he did it. He did an excellent job. And as he says to, to Batman, he says, look, I'm not a monster. I'm just serve. That's when Batman loses, he loses it. And he just loses because now he pulls him up from the table. He's going to start to beat him. He throws him against the table. Right. And he barricades the door and he throws me in the glass and everything. And the joker is laughing hysterically through this whole beating. He is condescending to Batman when he throws them up against the wall. And he says, you know, for a minute, I really thought you were done at a time, the way you threw yourself at her. And it's just getting under Batman skin and into his brain,

Speaker 3:

He's laughing maniacally. And the sound design is kicking in with that, that, that really intense sound effect that they did with

Speaker 1:

The theme I equate it to.

Speaker 3:

But it's one of those ones that makes you feel tense. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Because it's at the beginning of the movie. When you see the mask, it's at the beginning, when he walks in and talks to the mobsters, and this is its peak, this is its point of itchy. Exact thank you with the music, the music lady. Yes. And what happens is Batman is in film language. He has the power because he shot from low angles. The joker is powerless in film language because he shot from high angles. Batman shows his power physically by raising the joker, above him, even though he's interrogating him. And the joker has the upper hand because the joker has information, Batman does not have. Right. Right, right. And he's not going to give any, the whole point is the joker wants Batman to kill him. I'm sorry. Even though that's a lie. When he says that he wants Batman to kill, that's his one rule. It's his rule. Yeah. And it's a beautiful thing because we now see Batman in that film language, power position, he overtakes the frame. You're looking at him from an extremely low angle and he's yelling at him. Where is he? Where are you aware? Are they tell me where they are? And the joker just keeps laughing at him. And he punches him. And he led, her, told Christian bale, punch me. We're not doing this whole phony. We're going to add a sound effect. He said hit me. And he, and you can see it. He did. He hit him. And the greatest line of exposition in a movie to date, he punches him. And the joker kind of leans up in the corner of the wall, on the floor. And he says, you have nothing, nothing to threaten me with. Even with all your power and you see it in Batman's face, Batman knows it. There is nothing he can do to this man to get him to get the information that he needs.

Speaker 3:

That he kind of contorts a little bit and like loses it even more.

Speaker 1:

Right. And that's when he grabs him. And that's when the jerker says, I'll tell you, but that's the point because you are going to have to choose. And then he shows his ultimate power by switching the addresses. Cause he knows Batman's going after Rachel to make it look like he's coming after Harvey dens. And that's when Harvey dent breaks. Right. And that was the other point of the joker. He needed to break Harvey dent.

Speaker 2:

Well, and not only that, but you can definitely see the point where Batman, he has a moral confliction because while he loves Rachel Harvey, isn't innocent too. So now he's stuck between a rock and a hard place

Speaker 3:

That he's like the white Knight, Batman wants to quit at this point.

Speaker 2:

What did they call him? The white knife. Was it the white? It was the hero that Gotham deserves

Speaker 1:

As opposed to here that they need. Yeah,

Speaker 3:

The whole light at the end of the movie. Right. But it's interesting. Cause like Harvey, dent is kind of like the person he should save and then joker forces him to, even though he knows he wouldn't choose it. He

Speaker 1:

Knows he's going after Rachel.

Speaker 3:

He made him save a man. He would've done it.

Speaker 1:

Because again, it goes back to the line when he says, you know, I thought you were for awhile. I thought you were a dent the way you threw yourself after her. You know, and this is the climax of the movie and it's one of the greatest scenes in the film of a film that is filled with great scenes. The last conversation between Batman and joker. He's great. He talks to the mobsters is just a beautiful scene, too

Speaker 2:

Full of iconic scenes. And I will give you that when I first saw it in theaters, this film was one of those things where I was like, is it over yet? Because he packed so much into this little film. That was one of the things that I really had to step back and try to appreciate was him directing moments and not directing scenes. And that was one of those. Okay. It's a moment. Let it be a moment. Okay. Now move on. Yeah. And that's why I've always hated the dark night. I have never really liked the film because it's so jam packed full of everything. There wasn't one storyline that you could follow because you had 15 different things going on at the same time, because you had the barges, you had the money with the mob bosses. You had the beginning opening scene where they robbed the bank.

Speaker 1:

Constant of all, those is the joker. He says, he's a man without a plan. But my God he's, he had to be planning that whole thing for you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And I could see that being confusing and stressful for, cause it is a lot going on, but you follow the needle. It's really interesting. Why does he robbed the bank? He robs it, get the money to get his crazy suit, to talk to the mobsters. Once he talks to the mobsters, why is he doing that? So we can get Harvey and Rachel separated later cause they have connections,

Speaker 1:

But he's doing it to get half the mob's

Speaker 3:

Money. Right. Which he eventually burns to show that he's in power. Right. Which he uses to get a bunch of cheap gasoline and blow up the barges.

Speaker 1:

Look what I did to this city with a couple of gallons of gasoline and a few bullets.

Speaker 2:

Well, and that's the thing. When you first absorbed the movie through your eye orbs, it's a ton of information. It has rewatch double value.

Speaker 1:

Well it has it because it has so much packed into it that you have to watch it over again.

Speaker 2:

I can honestly say that even though I do not like this movie, I'd still watch it because I want to pick out those elements and I am someone that can analyze something to death, but I never understood the complexity of the movie in terms of symbology. If you think about it, joker is really that character that is every single one of us. Every one of us could be that joker

Speaker 1:

Or

Speaker 2:

Right. A part of us. There's always that one moment of madness that we have to control within ourselves. But here's Heath ledger just letting it out on screen.

Speaker 1:

Right. And that's the proxy. You get to let it out through Ledger's performance,

Speaker 2:

Which I think is really cool.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And also from a cinematography standpoint, it's just a great way of twisting the fundamentals of what we all are accustomed to and playing it with them, just like the joker plays.

Speaker 1:

It shows how you can break the rule and for anybody out there who, who is learning to make film or wants to learn how to make film this also to me shows the importance of storyboarding. If you're doing a small film for the first time, that might only be two minutes long. Yeah. And if you can't draw, it doesn't matter. Draw it out with stick figures.

Speaker 3:

It doesn't matter. Just place out what you want to see

Speaker 1:

Because you plan it out. You do not get this scene without months of planning and revision and saying, no, we have to do this. That has to be changed. That's good. But it should go here,

Speaker 3:

Especially with actors that are willing to improv and change things on the spot, right. Having a plan pre-made allows you to adjust

Speaker 1:

Well, because when you have a, when you have a, pre-made say, you know, camera movement, I'm going to pan from right to left on you. As long as you do what you're going to do in my frame, do it, improvise, do what you need to do. But I need that camera. It's the camera movement that needs to be consistent. That's the thing you can't compromise on. I think at a certain point,

Speaker 3:

It just spurred a thought because we had this conversation the other day. I'm pretty sure that when they filmed it, they probably had like a lot of those scenes, like a master shot where they just did the whole thing per angle. Right. I bet this movie was made in the edit. Oh, I'm sure. Especially those choices for the camera.

Speaker 1:

Sure. Cause you can see the Dolly and the push-ins and stuff like that. And you can tell when they're stopped and when they stopped, that's when they'll start to cut through that normal kind of over the shoulder. Right. Talking shots. Right. But then they go right back into the pans and the slow pan.

Speaker 2:

I was just about to bring that up. If you look at acting wise, these characters, this is probably the most praise I will ever give Christian bale. I'm not a fan of his and it's fine. It's he just rubs me the wrong way. I think it's because the first film I saw him in was American psycho.

Speaker 1:

Oh, I

Speaker 2:

Love the film, but it freaks me out because it's just that one moment where it's like, he could be anybody

Speaker 3:

And he did his job. Right,

Speaker 1:

Exactly. Right. But

Speaker 2:

I only see him as that character now. So it's, it's I'm jaded on that.

Speaker 1:

Do we have, so we have a Patrick Bateman is Batman. That's great. It's exactly. It's Patrick fan. If you notice in that movie, who does he kill with an ax? He kills the joker, the joker you like best. I know.

Speaker 3:

Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

It's funny. It is really funny. If you watch these two people act, you can't tell where they cut the scene because they have the exact same facial expressions. They have the exact same movements. It's one of those things where usually you can get like one of those goofs that you see on IMTP like his arm was raised when it was really down kind of things. They keep it almost as if they yelled stop and all they did was freeze and then came back to it. Yeah. That's

Speaker 3:

Why you have good people keeping track of where things oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. The continuity. And also just the actor themselves. As much as you've made dislike Christian bale, if the director tells him, look, I just need you to not just stipulate. I just need you to kind of look at them with your head cocked to one side and stay in that position. He'll do it. Oh yeah. You know, especially if you give them freedom to do other things within other takes,

Speaker 3:

Because you got to remember Nolan is the director at this point, right. People what to do

Speaker 2:

Well, and it goes to also, I really feel like as much as he isn't bail is a method, character actor. Yeah. Even though he probably doesn't seem like one, he's not like he Fletcher, he didn't seclude himself or anything like that. You could definitely tell that he is a form of character actor because even watching him in the prestige also

Speaker 3:

Directed by Christopher Nolan,

Speaker 2:

He definitely has these moments where you can see that he is that character. And I can't remember the character's name at this point.

Speaker 1:

Well, he is a method actor because a, for the machinist, which you did before the dark night, so unhealthy, he lost so much weight that he looks like he walked out of a concentration camp. Yeah. And then he put on all, any bolt, all that back to the dark Knight. So kudos to him because at some point he's going to have to retire just because his body won't be able to act at some point, but it just show how far he will go to do a role

Speaker 3:

Now with the new joker trailer being released, what do we think we're going to be expecting? Are we going to get something like this? Are we going to get something completely?

Speaker 1:

In my opinion, you have to put out of your mind, any kind of previous performance by anybody. Heath ledger is Ramiro. Anybody even mark Hamill because yes, mark Hamill, even though he doesn't play him physically, he plays the voice and he is, he is one of the greatest voices of the joker. Yeah. The longest

Speaker 3:

Running and for the good

Speaker 1:

Joker. Yes. I think as an audience member for it, you have to go in as much of a blank slate as you can get from the trailers. I like the makeup. Yeah. I think he looks pretty good. There, there are nice little Easter eggs that I kind of already know about that I won't, I won't spoil it for anybody. I think you just have to go in as much of, as a blank slate as you possibly can to get the most out of the movie. And hopefully

Speaker 3:

They're not teasing too much from the trailers.

Speaker 2:

Well, well, and that's the thing that you have to look at with, with any trailer at this point in today's society, they're going to pull out the most action packed scenes. They're going to do whatever they can. And my friend has specifically said she won't watch trailers because she's watching the movie.

Speaker 1:

Exactly. Well, we do that on the next, uh, installment of this, the problem with trailers now again. No, no,

Speaker 3:

No.

Speaker 2:

And here's an, here's where we have to really suspend our disbelief here. The joker is such an iconic character. We already have preconceived notions of what he's going to be and what we want him to be, which is why so many jokers fail. That's why, when you watch Jared Leto, as the joker, I went in there with a completely open mind, ignoring all of my preconceived notions. And I love his performance as the joker. And I'm going to get shot for that.

Speaker 1:

No, I liked his performance at the joker. I thought he was a good joker because it's a different type of drug. It's a different take on joker, but yet it's still the joker. My problem with it is that he wasn't in it enough

Speaker 2:

And that's, everybody's probably

Speaker 1:

Should have been in it more

Speaker 3:

And that's a whole other tangent. Right.

Speaker 1:

And to say that Keith ledger is throughout the dark night. He's not really, I figured if we cut out Heath ledger scenes, he'd probably be in for maybe 20, 30 minutes. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that might be a prologue. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

The thing is for the scenes that he's in, he's so articulate. You just can't stop watching it. And that's what makes it

Speaker 2:

As he builds the scene. And if you look at his iconic makeup and then going back to this scene, his makeup is disheveled. It is very victimized. It is very much, it's not the quote unquote perfection.

Speaker 1:

Usually the joker, usually the Joker's makeup does not get messed up because for the most part, you generally assume that cause he fell into the VAT of chemicals that the paint on him has become his skin. It has been permanently attached to him in some way. Yeah. But what makes Batman great is because Batman is a human being he's just rich and he's just rich enough to be able to do these things,

Speaker 2:

The joker what's your superpower.

Speaker 1:

I'm rich. Right? Exactly. And he's a human being. He can be hurt. He can be stopped. He can be messed with psychologically,

Speaker 3:

Perfectly symmetrical versus this grungy half apart

Speaker 1:

Suit. Yeah. But that's the whole point going back to their each other's half the joker in this is a human being. He has to put that makeup on. He was somewhere to get those scars and their plethora is of theories about where he got them. That mystery makes them more intriguing. Right. That was the, uh, interrogation scene for the dark night. Holy eggs,

Speaker 3:

Batman. The show is over

Speaker 2:

To be completely honest with you guys. We really love hearing from you. We really want to know what you guys think of our show. Give us a shout out on Facebook, find us on Twitter or Instagram. We are post cut podcast. If you guys want to give us a idea of any scenes that you want or anything, any film that you want us to review or anything like that, give us a shout out. We are listener mail@postcuppodcast.com and leave some reviews on iTunes. Give us some thumbs up on Spotify. We have some really great listeners overseas and we want to just really thank you from the bottom of our hearts because you guys are what are making us continue on with this show.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 2:

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Speaker 3:

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